Calzone

Debate Time: Prison Edition!

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Let's debate and discuss things like the Prison system, the death sentence, things like that which are prison and incarceration related.

Do you think the death sentence is just or unjust?

Is prison just or unjust

How has prison drifted from it's origins? Has it moved for better or worse?

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EDIT: Cleaned it up a bit

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Common anti-death sentence arguments:

- The process involved in putting a prisoner to death is far more expensive than keeping them locked away.

- Life is precious and it is not within the power of a state that proports itself to be free, democratic, and moral to decide who lives and who dies.

- If a precedent is set for the state to be granted authority to kill its own people, it forms a basis for further legislation granting greater powers to government authorities towards killing its own people.

- Empathetic views for the death sentence amount to revenge. Revenge is a biased action and has no place in a justice system that proports itself to be neutral.

- The death sentence does not provide recourse for miscarriages of justice.

I think those are the big ones

For death sentence:

- an eye for an eye.

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I think that the prison system as it stands right now is more of an alternate society. I mean, the nature of being sent to prison is that you are deemed incapable of functioning in normal society and stand as a threat to others as evident through your actions. I think it should me more of an Isolation aspect. As a substitute to the Death sentence, Isolate people in solitary confinement, which is a fate far worse than death, and in my book that's how it should be. Prison changes people, and it's a downspiraling mentality. Also, there should be some serious changes in the classification of just what you should go to prison for. Some of these crimes that many people are being sent to prison for are minor and light. I would think something more on the psychological side would be more beneficial.

Prison as it stands now destroys people's minds.

I don't know how prison is in countries other than the USA, but maybe someone else could go more in-depth than I could being that I don't know much about the subject.

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I don't know how prison is in countries other than the USA, but maybe someone else could go more in-depth than I could being that I don't know much about the subject.

Prison in the US is a lot better* than those outside of the US.

*when i say better, i mean better for the prisoners. they are going to be more happy in a US prison.

Edited by Sparks™

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the USA has 5% of the world's population and 25% of the world's prisoner population. isn't that neat?

no matter the ideals behind the death penalty, in practice it screws up too much for me to support it.

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My two bits, copypasted from another thread:

If anything, I'm a bit old-school. I feel wrongdoers should be held accountable and responsible to their own communities. Not for guilt, that should be decided by fair trial, but the discipline should be up to the people closest to the crime.

There was a drunk driver once that ran into a 16-year-old. The judge was going to give standard prison time, but the mother asked for a different punishment. The judge agreed. Every year, on the daughter's birthday, the defendent was ordered to bring a rose to the mother, and an appology.

By the second year, the defendent was begging the judge to go to prison.

Edit: The accident was fatal for the daughter, btw.

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I think that the legal system is just IMO. Sure, some people are arrested on fallacious charges, but it shouldn't be much of an issue if they decided to get their stuff together.

The death sentence should go back to a variable system instead of it being laid out on a spreadsheet. The type where it depends on what you do and how severe it is should do it instead of just what you did. Because on that same spread value, a man can get away with Unarmed Robbery when he killed 3 people with 3-10 years while if you did it with the variable system, this is almost 15-Life or just straight up death sentence depending on how they were killed.

In the end, yes I want the Death Sentence to be more strict.

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My two bits, copypasted from another thread:

If anything, I'm a bit old-school. I feel wrongdoers should be held accountable and responsible to their own communities. Not for guilt, that should be decided by fair trial, but the discipline should be up to the people closest to the crime.

There was a drunk driver once that ran into a 16-year-old. The judge was going to give standard prison time, but the mother asked for a different punishment. The judge agreed. Every year, on the daughter's birthday, the defendent was ordered to bring a rose to the mother, and an appology.

By the second year, the defendent was begging the judge to go to prison.

Edit: The accident was fatal for the daughter, btw.

We saw a movie in Driver's Education about Drunk driving and the consequences thereof.

There was a similar story that spanned 10 years only instead of a rose every year, it was a full page letter every week with one dollar.

Guy went on for almost the full sentence before he cracked.

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I don't believe in using the justice system as a way of "punishing" people for their crimes; if that were the case we could go back to methods like prying people's fingernails off as "punishment". What we really want to do is get people to understand their wrongdoing, and wish never to make the same mistake again. Punishment isn't always so effective for things like that, especially when it's so long-term and disconnected.

Of course, I have to admit I have no good alternatives to prison (which sucks up an enormously disproportionate amount of our budget, and certainly makes citizens much safer), but I feel like going further along those lines, something could be invented to apply the right sort of psychiatry to criminals to get them back on track.

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100% against the death penalty.

We have put multiple people to death who have been later proven innocent. You can't just say "whoops, our bad," on that one.

Until we have a perfect justice system we should not put people to death under it, because killing ONE innocent person is too many.

Furthermore even if a criminal is unrepentant if measures were taken to rehabilitate them beyond sticking them in a horrible place, we might have more success. There are prison doctors and psychiatrists but I don't think individual prisoners get the sort of attention from them that they require. If we spent money on increasing the care prisoners get to help genuinely reform them, the less repeat offenders we get.

Prisoners are cast out into a world that has oftentimes passed them by and that does not desire them. You are punished long after being released from prison in this society. I believe prisoners should be given jobs right out of the gate. Not great jobs. But jobs and a place to stay. They can put these jobs as references on a resume to help them transition to better positions. Employers who might have been hesitant to hire a potentially unstable or dishonest person would be able to see a clean work record from their transition employment and be able to more confidently hire an ex-con.

Furthermore, 22% of the prison populace are drug offenders. It costs about $35,000/year (varying by state) to incarcerate a single prisoner. By 2009 there were 2.2 million people in prison. 22% of 2.2 million is 484,000. That number times 35,000 yields this number : $16,940,000,000, which is, as you can see, a lot of damn money. Not to mention our so-called "War on Drugs," which has increased the prison population VASTLY, itself costs taxpayers billions and billions of dollars.

http://www.drugsense.org/cms/wodclock Just this year we've spent $25 billion on the war on drugs. Apparently state law enforcement accounts for another $25 billion.

Adding to the idea that our government stands to make about $32 billion in taxing said drugs. http://en.wikipedia....s#cite_note-108

Legalize drugs and you clear out 1/5th of the prison population, shut down the cartels, save almost $100 BILLION a year, and inject another $32 billion in taxes.

What you can do with that tax money is put a ton of it straight into our education system, which will better prepare people to go into society and not become criminals, because criminals tend to be very poorly educated. Better education means a more desirable potential workforce means less people become unemployed and desperate.

That's my general take on the prison system and while it didn't really conform to the questions asked in the topic I still think it's valid.

Edited by Dollop of Mayo
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Well, IMO the Death Sentance is a bit cruel and agree with Dollop, although It's probably not a good Idea to legalize EVERY drug knowing how irresponsible people can be with them, but we should definatly legalize Cannabis and other less dangerus drugs to atleast lower the amount of people that go to prison for drug related crime.

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We have put multiple people to death who have been later proven innocent. You can't just say "whoops, our bad," on that one.

Until we have a perfect justice system we should not put people to death under it, because killing ONE innocent person is too many.

Unless we move to a system that completely removes the human element from the process, there is no such thing as "perfect justice"... This is a pendulum that swings both ways... Are there innocent people that are put to death each year? Yes, however, most of these cases are from times prior to modern forensics... Are there guilty people that walk free each year? Yes, of course... Usually through lack of evidence or exploits in our legal system...

Because of this, saying that the death penalty should not be used is ridiculous... That's like saying anyone who is proven innocent should still be rounded up and jailed, "just in case"...

I mean, would you think it fair to say "because freeing ONE guilty person is too many"?

(More to follow later, I'm exhausted and need to head to bed)

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I am aware we will never have a perfect justice system. We will eliminate crime before we have a perfect justice system.

It's absolutely nothing like saying innocent people should be jailed "just in case." The death sentence is not a necessity. We don't have to kill anybody. But don't you think we have an obligation to not kill innocent people?

It's not really a fair comparison because if we free a guilty person they are still alive. If we kill an innocent person, we can't bring them back when we find out they died because of an error. It's a matter of permanence. It's terribly regrettable when a guilty person goes free, especially if they go on to commit other crimes, up to and including murder. So while there is a RISK involved in the release a guilty person, there is a CERTAINTY that an innocent person put to death will be DEAD and unable to be exonerated in any fashion other than posthumously, which doesn't do a dead person any good and isn't much of a reassurance to friends and family who can never get the person back. That's where the comparison breaks down.

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I have always thought that death is something that can never be justified, under no circumstances. Recently however because of some of the shocking murders that have took place I have had to change my view to 'death is something that can never be justified, except under extreme circumstances.' When I say extreme circumstances I mean those who have killed a high amount of people, Anders Breivik and Batman Killer for example, or those who aren't scared of going to jail, such as the Salford Murder. I don't see any benefit in keeping these kinds of people alive.

I'd write more but it's too early and I can't be bothered jumping into a debate at the present time.

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Ok so, I came up with a bullheaded decision: You commit a harsh crime and get pinned for it, you die. Saves money and allows us to not have any regrets.

Light Yagami style.

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As far as I see it, death sentence is completely unnecessary yes. flipflop already pointed out most of the points on how I feel about it really. Justice should be about, well, justice, not vengeance and blood lust. I am happy they sent Breivik to a lifetime in prison rather than executing him really, even if he is so obviously guilty, because even if what he did is inexcusable and he is a complete and utter monster, he is still a living human being and killing him would not make us much better than him.

And sometimes errors do happen, people who are innocent get arrested due to framing or being in the wrong place to the wrong time. If said person is in prison, letting him/her out wouldn't be much trouble if they find out (s)he didn't do it, if (s)he is dead... well, this isn't a video game and we can't use console cheats to revive said person.

And of course, there is the whole thing of people sometimes doing even worse things than was first planed due to "hey we are going to get the death sentences anyways, what the hell" and end up killing or hurting even more people in the process (and yes that does happen, crazy people are crazy and craziness isn't exclusive to bad crime dramas).

All in all, I feel we should keep prisoners alive and threat them like human beings, while still punishing them for what they did by keeping them away from the world around.

I don't know how prison is in countries other than the USA, but maybe someone else could go more in-depth than I could being that I don't know much about the subject.

Prison in the US is a lot better* than those outside of the US.

*when i say better, i mean better for the prisoners. they are going to be more happy in a US prison.

HAHAHAHAHAHA no. Norwegian prisons are a lot better all around, and we don't have death sentences at all. I have seen the horror stories from your guys prisons and I can say that I am sure there is at least a handfull of countries that got better prisons for the prisoners.

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I'd say death penalty because you have to face your punishment for what you have done. I think they should also make it with less chances for them to go to court to lessen costs, I mean, how many times does a death sentence case go to court? 20? You could easily make that 10 and it would still be accurate. In fact, if there is overwhelming evidence that the suspect DID commit murder, then they shouldn't even really get that chance. I believe it was Timothy McVeigh who said this: "There's not a court in this country that could prove I didn't do it. So please, just kill me now." and so they did.

As for the prison system, I'd say regulate it a bit more so there isn't as much violence in prisons. I've heard from guys who have gone to prison that if you even look at a guy wrong, he will kick your ass. They should have more protection than his own ability to fight.

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As for the prison system, I'd say regulate it a bit more so there isn't as much violence in prisons. I've heard from guys who have gone to prison that if you even look at a guy wrong, he will kick your ass. They should have more protection than his own ability to fight.

"Lets give the inmates means to defend themselves!"

*3 days later*

"Hello?!?!? This is the Gutanama Bay defense team! We have been outnumbed and everyone is dead! We gave them a slight way to defend themselves from each other but, we didn't know that they would hate us more than one another! We need immediate backup or else... Else.... All hope is lost. I hear them breaking though our barricade! THEY ARE COMING IN!! NO, NOT MY BEAUTIFUL FACE!!! NOT THE FA------"

*Line goes dead.*

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Not saying give them weapons grapes, I'm saying have more guards in the areas with prisoners to break up the action faster.

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Maybe we should replace the Death Sentence with Solitary Confinement for life, which is living hell in and of itself, and after a predetermined time, give them the option to throw the switch to kill themselves.

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Not saying give them weapons grapes, I'm saying have more guards in the areas with prisoners to break up the action faster.

"Hey guys, lets start a fake fight between 2-4 of us so that while the guards who are all in 1 area trying to stop the fight, we can gang up on and steal their equipment!"

Think about it like this malt: They use coordination to get what they want while they are inside. If you make it so you have an imbalance of guards in one area, they can move on it quicker thus causing a riot. Inmates think malt. They aren't those dumbshits that the media projects them out to be.

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I don't know how prison is in countries other than the USA, but maybe someone else could go more in-depth than I could being that I don't know much about the subject.

Prison in the US is a lot better* than those outside of the US.

*when i say better, i mean better for the prisoners. they are going to be more happy in a US prison.

HAHAHAHAHAHA no. Norwegian prisons are a lot better all around, and we don't have death sentences at all. I have seen the horror stories from your guys prisons and I can say that I am sure there is at least a handfull of countries that got better prisons for the prisoners.

I'm speaking in a general sense. Sure, some countries have more easygoing prisons than us, but most do not. Horror stories from prisons are either from Guantanamo Bay (which is for terrorists and war prisoners) or Alcatraz (which has been closed since 1963). Many prisons here are just free meal and housing.

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If we want to make a really good prision, we should ship everyone to Chernobyl and stack the woods with fresh game every 2 weeks. Make them fend for themselves in a nuclear wasteland.

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