Calzone

Debate Time: Prison Edition!

111 posts in this topic

Choose a side and stick to your convictions, because constant flip flopping on matters will only make you look either uninformed or a hypocrite...

First of all this is just truly a debate between you and Flip. I am just one of the readers and before I read any of these posts I posted by personal stance. When you started to post, I was slowly getting swayed but then Flip posted I got swayed by that. What is the point of any of both of your posts if you don't expect people to be swayed by them?

Firstly, to address this... A.) I never said anything about segregating these inmates from general prison populace... I said strip away the luxuries in their life... There is a profound difference... That's like the difference between being grounded and having all of your privileges taken away and being locked in a closet for misbehavior.... I'm not even sure how you made that cognitive leap...

I made that cognitive leap because how I interpreted it, you basically indirectly implied it. Keep taking away their "luxuries/privileges of life and sooner or later the individual will eventually comply, life will be miserable" well those "privileges" could be considered as the right to walk around the prision and talk to fellow immates. So eventually that essentially becomes solitary confinement. But if that is not all what you meant, my bad, but don't be so harsh on the way I interpreted it and hopefully you see the rationale of mine.

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Actually, the programs I was talking about were specifically directed towards incarcerated criminals... I could care less if an ex-con qualifies for financial aid, once they are free they are no longer on my dollar, therefor, no longer my concern...

I was talking about programs such as the Bard Prison Initiative or the correspondence programs that local community colleges form with prisons...

Bard is a private college and as such operates on tuition fees, donations and fund raisers. That's the condition of most prison college programs once federal support for prisoner tuition was cut in 1994.

Correspondence courses for criminals, though available, their costs are taken from the prisoner's own wallet like this one

http://www.ohio.edu/ecampus/future/cpi.htm

Again inmates are not eligible to apply for

Lol, bigotry against bigots... Ironic considering you are crusading on why we should be treating prisoners better, meanwhile, racial discrimination is a rather integral part of prison life... My father even said, each race stuck to their own... That's just how it was...

Even if some prisoners believe in racial discrimination, their reintegration into society depends on dropping stigmas against ex-cons for the crimes which they have served their penalty for. If they choose to practise their prejudice outside of prison then that's their loss. But the thing is that they're not losing about because they're ex-cons, they're losing out for prejudices that are already not tolerated in society and have no reason to be.

>Implying you know my familial obligations or the area I lived...

Then don't make me jump to conclusions by feeding me tidbits of an anecdote. I already got on Cinnamon's case about this. I have to make assumptions from what you choose to let me know. Being a Canadian researching Section 8 housing and the American welfare is too time consuming because conditions vary state by state, and you have 50 states so I'm willing to let issues about American welfare go because it's too much time and it's starting to get a little personal. If you want to give me some reading on the subject I can do that.

Heh, I fail to see the problem with this... This practice is already common place here in America, however, instead of being locally produced, we're bringing in goods made in Mexico, China, and whatever other country can manufacture the goods cheaper due to a workforce paid less than fair salaries... If anything, I would prefer cheap mass produced goods made locally, at least then it would diminish our reliance on other countries (I mean, how many times are we going to get burned by substandard Chinese products before we wise up and stop importing)... But, that, is really a different issue altogether... I'm merely pointing out that it is a weak supporting claim for why we shouldn't have criminals put to work...

If you know that being paid less than what your labour is worth is wrong then why advocate for it? Private prisons use tax payer money to feed and house prisoners, then use prisoner labour to turn an extra profit. That's the problem with private prisons. If you're saying that public prisons should adopt the same policy, as I've already said you'll be creating a system where people become trapped in a cycle of forced labour. The reason being is that forced labour does not reduce recidivism, prisoners will one day be released and if they aren't equipped to reenter society they will return to prison. You'll be trapping people regardless of their crime into a system where the government profits from people's misery.

Also there are no labour laws for inmates, so abuses can be carried out widely without repercussion by administrators and guards. Although these abuses would have to be tried as cruel and unusual punishment but I'll get to that issue later.

Once again, here in lies the difference between what I am talking about and the picture you try to paint Floop... You paint a picture of medieval torture chambers and inhumane practices... I, merely say, the things that qualify as LUXURY items be stripped away... It is not cruel and unusual to deny an inmate cable tv or internet... It is not cruel and unusual to provide no frill meals... These are things that we as Americans have come to expect in life, but are in no way required... Stop clouding the waters...

I never said anything about torture chambers. I said that forcing someone to work against their will in difficult conditions without fair compensation for their labour is inhumane and not the focus of the justice system. Luxury items are already disallowed. Prisoners don't have wanton access to televisions and internet in their cells. Barring someone from recreation areas is already common practice for bad behaviour. However not wanting to be forced into a system of state profiteering isn't bad behaviour. The state has the right to incarcerate you to protect the population, but it doesn't have the right to force you to labour against your will for its own profit. And like I've said it doesn't protect the population if it doesn't reduce recidivism, because criminals will repeat their offences.

I want to respond to the rest but I'm a meticulous and slow writer and it feels like I'm spending more time then I should on this.

I just want to say you're the only person on ponyville who has kept a cool head and didn't back down when I confronted them in a debate topic. So I'm greatful for that, I'm not passionate enough about the topic to continue pushing for it the way I have. Good luck with your army stuff, I learned a lot from this debate both from the opposition and from my own point.

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I just want to say you're the only person on ponyville who has kept a cool head and didn't back down when I confronted them in a debate topic. So I'm greatful for that, I'm not passionate enough about the topic to continue pushing for it the way I have. Good luck with your army stuff, I learned a lot from this debate both from the opposition and from my own point.

Harper-Thumbs-Up.jpg

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Heh, it's all good...

Admittedly, once upon a time I was hopeful and far left too... Long hair and bell bottoms, rebelled against the "man", tore up my selective service card because I wasn't going to be a "part of the system"... But after 8 years in the Army, I have come to be cynical and hardened... I look at society and see waves of perceived helplessness that is simply infuriating... I see people who are stubborn and opinionated, that talk about subjects as if they know "what like is like"... So... Yes, I apologize if this debate went on and was a bit more intense than intended... This is just the person I've become...

But, on the same token, I'm no ultra conservative right wing either... Like I said, I like to say I'm a progressive moderate, because I look at both sides with a much needed skepticism...

On the left, you have people that want to try to make everyone happy, who want to solve all of the world's problems through talking and (what I see as) hugging it out... I think this is unrealistic because to make everyone happy you have to compromise and if you compromise too much, suddenly no one is happy anymore... Also, talking is only so effective... Look at foreign policy, America throws money at countries that are openly hostile towards us in efforts of "good will", but what does that ever accomplish? The countries still hate us, just now we're out money and supplies... Also, to properly fix most of the problems in society, the number of programs and policies needed would be staggering, and the money to run them is simply not there...

On the right, you have people that look out for their own interests and benefits at the cost of others... They are capitalistic, which is a double edged sword... It makes more jobs, but it also spurns more greed as companies screw over their employees to turn a larger profit (either through cuts in wages or benefits)... They are quick to act with brute force, which at times is required, but it is also why America has such a poor image overseas...

So, I sit in the middle, picking and choosing where my lines lie... I do believe that many of our programs, such as welfare, food stamps, and section 8 are abused by lazy people (I grew up poor, so many of the families that lived in my area were recipients of these programs)... Also, I have family that has abused these programs as well and all they produce is additional generations that essentially feel entitled and in turn also abuse the system... I also feel programs like disability is abused... I have family members that also draw disability, for issues like alcoholism (which, runs rampant in my family)... Growing up around these conditions turned me off of what I saw as the "easy route" and as such, I am highly critical of others that I see follow that path...

I also have family members that have spent hard time in prison, so my understanding of what goes on in the prison systems and what is available to inmates is gleaned from that... My father had a miniature golf course for crying out loud... How is this a justifiable use of tax dollars?

So, I apologize if throughout my arguments, I didn't properly explain a lot of where my opinions are drawn from... I don't often talk about myself or background, mostly, because I don't see a point in it...

So here's to you Floop, for sticking to your principles and not cowing down to me... Believe it or not, I respect people who stick by their convictions, as long as they actually have a reason for having them...

It's just like the 2008 elections... Despite voting McCain, I respected people who voted Obama given that a.) they understood his policies and b.) weren't doing it because it was the "popular" thing to do or just to make history (both common platforms for Obama's 2008 run for presidency)... People who don't understand politics should be banned from participating XD Uninformed decisions never yield good results...

And with all that said....

/debate?

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On the right, you have people that look out for their own interests and benefits at the cost of others... They are capitalistic, which is a double edged sword... It makes more jobs, but it also spurns more greed as companies screw over their employees to turn a larger profit (either through cuts in wages or benefits)... They are quick to act with brute force, which at times is required, but it is also why America has such a poor image overseas...

So, I sit in the middle, picking and choosing where my lines lie... I do believe that many of our programs, such as welfare, food stamps, and section 8 are abused by lazy people (I grew up poor, so many of the families that lived in my area were recipients of these programs)... Also, I have family that has abused these programs as well and all they produce is additional generations that essentially feel entitled and in turn also abuse the system... I also feel programs like disability is abused... I have family members that also draw disability, for issues like alcoholism (which, runs rampant in my family)... Growing up around these conditions turned me off of what I saw as the "easy route" and as such, I am highly critical of others that I see follow that path...

This so much!

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settled like gentlemen.

There were no pistols or swords. How can you call it gentlemanly

Hey, I know a guy in prison that can make a pistol with a ring, denim jeans and toilet paper

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