Rainy

[Versus Ponyville] Weapon Suggestions

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The phlogistinator is pretty much trash as it is, and I see nothing wrong with allowing phlog users to be healed.

I personally don't see why anyone would even hate it right now. The only time it's effective is if the hale doesn't understand how the phlog works. It's totally useless against anyone who isn't a sillyface: Just stand in front of the taunting phlog pyro, wait for him to finish activating his mmmph, and then smack him once. Maybe even twice! Dead. No more phlog.

Allowing phlogistinator pyros to be healed would potentially make the weapon useful again, as a medic could then save the silly pyro after he's activated his taunt. Now why is that a bad thing?

It's really silly to totally prevent someone from being helped by a medic just because they're drastically more effective and dangerous with uber. In that vein of thought for balancing, maybe miniguns should block healing, too. And the stock rocket launcher! Those are both much more effective with uber, and miniguns especially can do thousands of damage in one uber.

Blocking healing on anything that's better with uber is ridiculous. That's not a good direction to go on balancing things, and it never really should have happened to the phlog(Or the widowmaker). Hales having difficulty dealing with phlog/medic combos is really more of a personal issue for the hale being unable to kill the medic rather than a serious balance issue with the weapon.

The phlog is total trash on its own, and currently, like a lot of less-used weapons on the server, it's bad and has no point anymore. Removing the healing block attribute would alleviate that.

 

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On February 21, 2016 at 8:47 PM, Aurotzel said:

I honestly really dislike the Phlog and didn't want to give any idea to buff it, but it's just bad how it is right now. Also think that any weapon with a heal block should get reworked as it is, since it's just a pain for Medics. If there needs to be a nerf set in place, I'd think a slight range nerf would be the best way to do it.

Like I said go nuts, I'm totally on board with it.

On February 21, 2016 at 8:47 PM, Aurotzel said:

When it comes to the weighdown, I agree that it's annoying as a Pyro, but trust me, the hale is definitely more irritated then you are with the airblasting to begin with.

Gonna have to disagree with this, I would take fighting a pyro for about half a second and then killing him by abusing the weigh down function over sitting in spectator for the round to end any day.

On February 21, 2016 at 8:47 PM, Aurotzel said:

Never really knew how to truly "fix" pyro, but I don't think a buff to one of his most powerful tools he already has will really make it more balanced.

This isn't a buff to airblast, this is to stop hale from abusing the weigh down function in ways that the creators never intended via spamming it in quick succession to get a boost of speed that the pyro can't stop. It is almost the definition of an exploit but it gets a pass for some reason because lol, pyro. I'm not saying remove weigh down I'm just suggesting a longer cool down to stop it from being spammed, it will change almost nothing due to the fact it's supposed to be used like once anyway.

On February 21, 2016 at 8:47 PM, Aurotzel said:

Pyro's will always succeed at annoying people, airblast is annoying. Especially when you're forced to melee only.

Scout's will always succeed at annoying people, his speed is annoying.

Engineer will always succeed at annoying people, sentry guns are annoying.

Spy will always succeed at annoying people, dead ringer resistance is annoying.

Sniper will always succeed at annoying people, his absurd range is annoying.

Especially when you're forced to melee only. 

(Sarcasm on) Now while these annoy most people I am of the minority that hates soldiers rocket jumping to health packs so I   suggest we make weigh down control gravity on use to drop the soldier out of the sky since it already stops the power of air itself. (Sarcasm off)

On February 21, 2016 at 8:47 PM, Aurotzel said:

If weighdown didn't exist, and people didn't rage Pyros as much as they did, and then people spammed airblast constantly, hale would pretty much be next to impossible to win.

Don't want weigh down removed or vertical knock back would be a literal nightmare for hale, just want it to have a cool down of about 2 seconds once you touch the ground. And it's fine if people rage pyro because rage is there to stop annoying things like engineers, scouts, and pyros. The difference is hale LOSES his rage meter if he waste it on one person, but with weigh down there is virtually no drawback. And I honestly can't imagine hale being pretty much impossible to win with if we gave weigh down a slight cool down when he can already jump halfway across the map and one shot 8/9 classes especially to airblast when no ammo from dispensers, rage, 2/4 flamethrower's not built for airblast, degreaser nerf, no ammo in general, reload abilities, and the tough break update stopping air stun during multiple airblast are things. That's not even mentioning other minor problems such as ping, the airblast not registering in time, or your team to actually be around and have you shoot the hale. If anything sniper, demo, and engineer have a bigger impact than a puff of air that deals no damage requiring teammates to take advantage of while those classes can go lone wolf and almost solo hale. 

TL:DR

I want weigh down to have a cool down of about two seconds when hale touches the ground and not doing this because the main function and gimmick of a class is annoying is not an excuse to not fix it. If that's the case we shall smash medics glasses so he can't see anymore twilight zone style.

 

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48 minutes ago, WHYYYY.EXE said:

-snip-

Understand your point, it is spammed, along with super jump. Super jump and weighdown could both use a bit longer of cooldowns, especially bosses that can instant weighdown and have a higher jump. (Pip, Daring)

I'm just biased because I hate Pyros who airblast multiple times without backing off, and will generally end up raging because it's plain out not fun to fight.

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12 hours ago, Aurotzel said:

Understand your point, it is spammed, along with super jump. Super jump and weighdown could both use a bit longer of cooldowns, especially bosses that can instant weighdown and have a higher jump. (Pip, Daring)

And thus we reveal again the core problem with vsh, vsp, and any other spin off. The basic mechanics. I wish we would just patch the things tough break broke and keep quiet about weapons for any class, including pyro and focus on actually balancing the true problem with the game mode which are the bosses mechanics themselves.

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IDK, every time I use the phlog I consistently get 2K or more damage. That's more than what I get with other pyro weapons, for sure. What exactly is bad about it? It's a high risk high reward weapon, you can't be healed because you can do basically a thousand damage a second once you get up close. The hales that aren't smart enough to just jump away you can rack up 5K easily.

Noted about the reserve shooter and the volcano fragment, looking through the Pyro document now. Tomislav, Jarate, Big Earner, Direct Hit I will take a look at today.

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8 minutes ago, Simple said:

IDK, every time I use the phlog I consistently get 2K or more damage. That's more than what I get with other pyro weapons, for sure. What exactly is bad about it? It's a high risk high reward weapon, you can't be healed because you can do basically a thousand damage a second once you get up close. The hales that aren't smart enough to just jump away you can rack up 5K easily.

Noted about the reserve shooter and the volcano fragment, looking through the Pyro document now. Tomislav, Jarate, Big Earner, Direct Hit I will take a look at today.

Yeah it's pretty powerful and pretty easy to do well with, can agree. I can understand putting in a few nerfs to compensate, just not a fan of heal blocks on weapons because it's just punishing medics.

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3 hours ago, Simple said:

IDK, every time I use the phlog I consistently get 2K or more damage. That's more than what I get with other pyro weapons, for sure. What exactly is bad about it? It's a high risk high reward weapon, you can't be healed because you can do basically a thousand damage a second once you get up close. The hales that aren't smart enough to just jump away you can rack up 5K easily.

Noted about the reserve shooter and the volcano fragment, looking through the Pyro document now. Tomislav, Jarate, Big Earner, Direct Hit I will take a look at today.

If you are looking through the document I would hope the axtinguisher and the degreaser get fixed. Also would like to hear your thoughts on the spamability of super jump and weigh down if you dont mind Simple, not sure who controls hale balance but you balance weapons so I would assume you balance the other things as well. If you agree with the notion that super jump and weigh down are too easily spammed than I would hope for you to consider increasing the cool down on these abilites and if you don't find super jump and weigh down spam to be a problem than I would like to ask you for tips to countering them because i've tried basically everything.

Edited by WHYYYY.EXE
Added some stuff

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The weightdown already has a cooldown after being used, where it increases gravity as you can't jump for a few seconds after, which prevents from superjumping or being knocked in the air to do that again.

The superjump spam is not a problem as not everyone is doing that. The only hales with short cooldown is Pinkie and Braeburn (Pinkie makes sense cause of her bouncing in the actual show). Normally hales have a 5 second cooldown before use again, but that doesn't mean it's unfair. People who are spamming the superjump are normally people who are good at strafe jumping who takes good advantage of that while being hard to get hit. This is not a problem with the cooldown, but it's the person who likes to use it alot.

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On February 25, 2016 at 10:22 AM, ThunderRunner said:

The weightdown already has a cooldown after being used, where it increases gravity as you can't jump for a few seconds after, which prevents from superjumping or being knocked in the air to do that again.

Than that must be some sort of bug somewhere, something unintended. It is impossible for that to be true when it happens on a regular basis, that or my eyes deceive me.

 

On February 25, 2016 at 10:22 AM, ThunderRunner said:

The superjump spam is not a problem as not everyone is doing that.

You are completely correct. Not everyone is spamming superjump... the other 10% are running around holding their mouse one down and using the rage meter as soon as it's filled and are winning somehow. 

 

On February 25, 2016 at 10:22 AM, ThunderRunner said:

Normally hales have a 5 second cooldown before use again, but that doesn't mean it's unfair.

5 seconds is not nearly enough time for a cool down on the superjump itself but you a correct, that's not the reason it's overpowered. The reason it is overpowered is because it can launch you half way across the map and like you said, makes you harder to hit. The longer cool down I suggested was the only possible way I could think of fixing something so broken without destroying it entirely.

On February 25, 2016 at 10:22 AM, ThunderRunner said:

The only hales with short cooldown is Pinkie and Braeburn (Pinkie makes sense cause of her bouncing in the actual show).

New vsp twilight buff confirmed, because of her abilities and how her character is in the show we have buffed princess twilight sparkle to literally fly and be able to freeze everyone on the map whenever she wants! Also pinkie should be able to break the 4th wall and crash people's games with her rage as well as have the player know everyone's date of birth.

On February 25, 2016 at 10:22 AM, ThunderRunner said:

People who are spamming the superjump are normally people who are good at strafe jumping who takes good advantage of that while being hard to get hit. This is not a problem with the cooldown, but it's the person who likes to use it alot.

I don't know how to air strafe properly, at least not at a high skill level and I'm better at it than a lot of people in the server and they spam super jump and get by just fine. The problem is with the ability itself, I don't know how in what universe a being that can stun, one shot, have a TON of health, have extra abilities tacked on and have the ability to jump farther than a soldier and negate any vertical knock back with no downside whatsoever can be deemed balanced unless you played something like demo or snip... sniper... or spy. Now I'm REALLY curious. I wonder if there is a trend between class mains and their interpretation of how balanced hale is, I'm going to make a new discussion and find out! For science of course. Toddles!

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An update is coming out today:

All the new skins (Tough Break) have been added, should work fine without the prior issues (pistols not getting crits, etc)

Tomislav has increased movement speed

Sharpened Volcano Fragment has more afterburn now, and no more ammo penalty

Reserve shooter now causes fire on hit

Big Earner now regens health passively

Direct Hit causes minicrits on targets on fire

Jarate gives no falling damage, passive regen

Manmelter has slower firing speed

Degreaser now spends ammo even slower

Loose cannon has the slow attribute removed to make it match the update

Grenade launcher reverted to stock configuration, however it does shoot 10% faster now and gives 20% more primary ammo

 

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Hey Simple, The Big Earner Regen +2 hp but when you activate Dead Ringer, the Dead Ringer got activated *When you hold The Knife with the Dead Ringe*, I think it's need a fix :x

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9 hours ago, ๖ۣۜPinkamena said:

Hey Simple, The Big Earner Regen +2 hp but when you activate Dead Ringer, the Dead Ringer got activated *When you hold The Knife with the Dead Ringe*, I think it's need a fix :x

I Dont get it to be honest.

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Also, Damage Reduction, crits nor speed boost kick in at times with the Vacc. Could that be fixed? Tired of being killed in one non-crit hit with the bullet (damage) resistance charge deployed. It also needs a faster charge rate since you're not invincible at any given time. Also, passive crit resistance is also good. Its like having the resistance charge deployed acts like a magnet for random crits.

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The one thing I don't like about the suggestion is the passive minicrits and the dispenser heal block. The passive minicrits seem like a bit much and I think removing the healing from dispensers just sorta is an unnecessary nerf. The passive crit res I think is good though, because as it currently stands, the mediguns reliability is just based off of pure luck. (same goes for the Quick-Fix)

And yeah, the delayed uber is currently the biggest issue with the Medi Gun, and makes it extremely unreliable.

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31 minutes ago, Aurotzel said:

The one thing I don't like about the suggestion is the passive minicrits and the dispenser heal block. The passive minicrits seem like a bit much and I think removing the healing from dispensers just sorta is an unnecessary nerf. The passive crit res I think is good though, because as it currently stands, the mediguns reliability is just based off of pure luck. (same goes for the Quick-Fix)

And yeah, the delayed uber is currently the biggest issue with the Medi Gun, and makes it extremely unreliable.

As far as I know, dispensers cannot have their healing blocked with an item attribute. You can turn off primary ammo collection, though.

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I'm suggested to change the "Degreaser" and "Reserve Shooter" for good reasons.

 

So as we all now, the Degreaser is still the biggest timewasting weapon for Pyro. He uses less ammo for using it and uses it's switch speed to keep on airblasting the boss from close distance. It's used for combos but can now be primarly used to keep pushing the boss together with powerful secondaries. Bosses without player stun has trouble killing them and trying counter tactics like strafe jumping against them don't always work to how the current Degreaser is like. After Valve change, people were disappointed how the state turned out for the server with it's switch speed and airblast cost.

My suggestion:

+20% flame distance

+40% switch speed

-25% afterburn damage penalty

No ammo from dispensers while active

Remove the less ammo consumption and damage penalty and add it to ordinary switch speed but with less than it used to.

 

And for the Reserve Shooter, hell it got changed to be way too overpowered. It sets you on fire and crits vs fire as a hitscan weapon, I mean I could already guess that would be too overpowered before testing it. Firstly, it sets the boss on fire and follow up with crits, like it's a permanent crit weapon because it's a shotgun with fire that can be used like usual. Secondly, the downside with "20% less damage vs non-burning players" is nothing for just making a weaker first shot and then follow up with +200% stronger shots. Thirdly, like it is now, you can never use the Shotgun over it. Fourth, The Reserve Shooter combined with the Degreaser is the worst, it adds +100% switch speed to the Degreaser which makes it very hard to kill a pyro using the strong shotgun and switches back to Degreaser for the entire round while still dealing lots of damage. Fifth, hit-scan weapons with afterburn are annoying against the boss when you get set on fire from distance or can be from across the map, most of the time it's a reason it's kept at flamethrowers and projectiles but hitscan afterburn is a bad idea. 

My suggestion:

+15% damage bonus

+40% more accurate

+30% deploy speed

-34% clip size

I am up for Colgate's suggestion to make it accurate shotgun instead of turning it into a weapon that stands far outside Vanilla.

Edited by ThunderRunner

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I avoided really trying to say much from this update, but I'm against most of the weapon changes that were made. I'm a bit annoyed with the gimmicks being added to weapons to make them completely different from default, and I'd much prefer making them as close to vanilla as possible, but tweaking slightly if needed. Some completely useless weapons (KGB) are the few that could get completely unique things added to them, because they were useless beforehand anyways. Have fun with this rant.

Tomislav

I've wanted this to be default for months since Gun Mettle happened. The accuracy boost it has on default would make it an amazing sidegrade for stock, and you could do a bit more damage from range, and wouldn't have to get in the hale's face for damage. I'm really not understanding the faster movement speed that it's getting. You're still slow enough that it means absolutely nothing to move a tiny bit faster while spun up. It's completely unnoticeable unless you actual compare with another heavy that has stock.

Sharpened Volcano Fragment

A weapon that got a huge buff for almost no reason. The only thing that I recall being suggested was a better afterburn, but now that it has no ammo penalty, it does not have any downsides at all. The only real issue with the weapon is that the Degreaser didn't get a switch speed buff, so you can't really combo with it, but that's more an issue with that weapon and not this one.

Reserve Shooter

The worst of the changes. Like Thunder said, it's essentially a crit boosted shotgun as it stands, unless the hale is a pyro boss. There's almost no reason to use stock over it. Why is it like this? It can be FIXED. Why is the stat it's supposed to have not readded? I cannot understand the point of adding these gimmicks to weapons instead of fixing them to how they are supposed to function. I suggested a while back to fix that stat to begin with, then if it's still weaker then stock, give it a slight accuracy bonus, and a slight increase in pellets so it can rival with it. Stock=spam shotgun, Reserve=accurate shotgun.

Big Earner

It's broken. It completely breaks the Dead Ringer. I have no idea why, but it does. Another gimmick that a weapon should not have to begin with. Can it really not get a speed boost on stab? I know it takes more coding than just adding an attribute, but the Kunai works fine with the health on stab. Speaking of the Kunai..... it's already the "self-heal" knife. Why give another knife self healing when if you can't fix it, it can be it's own unique knife? These weapons shouldn't be so similar in function.

Direct Hit

This was mostly fine before the change. Sure it got nerfed because the airborne crit stat was gone, but it still functioned well enough as it was. Now it got forced into a gimmicky combo loadout with the Reserve Shooter, and completely took out the skill that it took to get good damage with it to begin with. Before you could pop the hale into the air, and airshot for high damage. Now the best way to use it is to light then on fire with a Reserve Shooter, and you have free minicrits. The fact that this happened to it is just frustrating to me, and it got a gimmick forced onto it for absolutely no reason, while it was still a usable weapon beforehand. I just cannot understand why the skill point of the weapon with the full crits on airshot would have gotten removed, while it got forced a gimmick onto it.

Jarate

One of the weapons I hate the least from this update. It's fine as it is, but it still stands that the Cozy Camper still exists. The Cozy already did self healing, and the Jarate could still get it's own unique change. It did need a buff, and I guess the no fall damage is nice, but it still feels too similar to really have them both do the same function.

Degreaser

Again, another case of getting a gimmick buffed, while completely ignoring the unique function it used to have to make it viable. Comboing. The switch speed needed a buff, that was literally all it needed. It has some hefty nerfs on there already to make it a fairly worthless flamethrower in comparison to the rest. I just don't understand why it wasn't fixed.

Grenade Launcher

My suggestion was half taken, then completely turned on its head. I wanted it default, as I saw no reason to have it changed to begin with. But then it was.... buffed? What? Demoman is arguably to be easily the most powerful solo class as it already stood. Eyelander grants the ability to increase your speed to be 2nd fastest class in the game. Next you have a shield that you can use to escape danger in a pinch. And lastly you have a fully critted primary that can do 300 damage in a single shot, with a modest amount of knockback. This buff I just cannot understand, and I never will. It should again be, completely default.

The 2 weapons I didn't mention were the Manmelter, and the Loose Cannon, as those got fixed as they should have, and I find them to work as they should. I'm trying my best to not come off overly rude with this, but I can't express how irritated I am with the balance as it's going.

People do NOT play for gimmicky new weapons. People play for the pony hales. The more weapons you completely overhaul unnecessarily, the more people that are going to be upset, and will wan to play less and less. After so long waiting for a change, I'm dissapointed to see how much I don't agree with it. You can argue that I can't speak for everyone, and that maybe people do enjoy the weapons, but either way, I've talked with friends about it, and most seem to agree that it's getting a bit out of hand.

I know a lot of work is put into this and all, but over time, it's making the server just less and less playable for myself. As someone who enjoys most classes and weapons the game has to offer, it's just a bit upsetting that I've seen myself lean closer and closer to stock as more changes happen, because I find most of the weapons too gimmicky to really be useful or fun to use.

I hate to have another update have to happen as it takes more time out of people's lives, but I think that it's in order to better the state of the servers. I'd be happy to make more suggestions for each class, but I'm not going to go through the effort if my suggestions all feel completely ignored, and weapons are going to be changed into things they shouldn't be at all.

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How about finally removing random crits from ALL hales, not just my beloved Sea Pony (normal swing speed, 147 damage, pls people, even a clam does 123 damage TOPS normally, not even enough to kill that pesky spy or debilitate the medic). Also, the Vaccinator is Nice, but still not as powerful as stock. 2.5 seconds of reduced damage, crits and speed (depending on the resistance) is not enough. The resistance uber (bullet type) makes the medic take 50+ damage per hit, meaning the medic is down in 3 hits, in comparison to the 8 second invincibility the stock uber gives. For the bullet type uber, I recommend at least 90% resistance to ANY damage for 3 seconds (Vinyl's guitar rage damage seems unaffected as I take 100+ damage from medium range, tho once I rode the blast wave while standing next to her and didn't die with the uber, get that checked.) Also, passive crit resistance while healing with bullet resistance selected would be nice. About half my deaths with the uber were made by a random crits, reason of my first complain. Explosive Type should grant passive mini crits (or 10-20% more damage) and the ubercharge should grant crits for 3 seconds, as always. Fire type should grant either passive speed boost to medic and heal target and a quick fix heal speed for both medic and target on uber (or just medic) OR increase heal rate with the fire type (if possible) and speed boost for 5 seconds on uber (2.5 seconds is not enough to escape RD or Chrysalis, seriously, why is chrysalis so fast?). It may seem a bit OP but with the crap ubercharge build rate it has on overhealed patients (Either they're at normal health or dead most of the time, one shots for everyone mostly) makes up for the buffs. This is my suggestion. Read it, love it, implement it, love it again.

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On 3/22/2016 at 5:35 PM, Tuil5 said:

I Dont get it to be honest.

He meant that if you hold out the big earner (which now gives you passive healing) and you pull out the deadringer, it will activate the deadringer without you being hit. As if it were a normal cloak. Which can EASILY get a spy killed if done at a wrong time; Deadringer gets activated just a second before hale hits the spy, spy takes enough damage to die or get down to around 10-15 health (depending on the hale). I just wish that they would've given it a speed boost on backstab but force the spy to have stock cloak, Or at the very least made it less trash, Maybe give it a ammo regen for his revolver so he doesnt constantly have to search for ammo?

Edited by Misty (Music)

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Stock RL's could be nicer if they did minicrit on airborn (from knockback) targets. I just wish for something that rewarded the player for having the skill to pull of airshots. Because currently, there's little to no reason to even attempt to airshot besides looking cool. Its not too big of a change, it can net the soldier what, 210 damage compared to the usual 110 or 80-ish?

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I agree with Aurotzel about them weapons and Juan about random crits.

However the Reserve Shooter is the biggest weapon problem, the ability to set the bosses on fire AND do more damage to on fire targets is too much. It shouldn't be a weapon to use all the time but instead a weapon to use after airblasting for a nice combo (save that for the stock).

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So for the past few days, I have learned to appreciate the Vaccinator and its uses, but it still falls behind compared to the other mediguns. Now I'm pretty much just suggesting a single buff: Add 10 or 15% speed for Vacc users. You are never invincible at any given point, always open to random crits, so I suggest a faster running speed to at least dodge a few Freedom Staff swings. Any backers?

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