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The very official knockback discussion thread

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In an effort to get a better idea of what the exact problem with knockback is, I am making this thread. I have been told by multiple people that the boss-sentry knockback should be changed in some fashion, however it seems like nobody can agree on what bosses need to be changed, and to what degree. I am trying to determine if there's some bug within the base FF2 that makes knockback unreliable and varied, or if it's just people trying to buff or nerf a boss because of other reasons.
It is important to keep in mind that all earth Ponies have a constant knockback reduction, Applejack is the only one that has an extreme one. We also have not changed any knockback stats ever since the last balancing patch regarding the bosses.

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Oke first of all all earth ponies have to much resistance because they are 100% immune pretty much to knockback, including apple jack.

 

Surprise takes so much knockback it feels like ruber band lag rather while its knockback.

A rage near sentry does't stun the sentry either making it even worse.

 

Bosses that take more knockback from sentries then others, ignoring the fact they are OP or not, not all of them have problems dealing with sentries

 

Surprise Short sentry rage stun unplayable

Celestia short sentry rage stun.

Fluttershy longer sentry rage stun 3 sentries properly placed can make impossible to win however rare.

Lauren faust takes lot more knockback from sentries though does't have problem dealing with sentries.

 

Regarding to much knockback resistance earth ponies all have 50% passive knockback resistance way more then they need.

Single rocket at feet does't make boss knockback at all which is to much.

When playing Pinkie Pie nothing really makes me knockback at all its like being a heavy immovable unbeatable tank, not really challenging and not fun.

 

In my opinion all bosses require between least 20 - 30 % passive knockback resistance, bosses with short sentry rage stun need least 30% or something to make them least resistant enough for 10 seconds during a rage to deal with sentries, assuming their rage distance is way to small.

 

Anyway to much knockback resistance on just earth ponies is imbalanced, while nothing being done with problematic bosses is't balanced either.

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 what bosses need to be be changed

You said  be twice, well, now back to the point, it should be something like what Jug and Aro said, make every single rage disable sentries globally, and all the earth ponies except for Applejack and BicMac, to have 30% knockback reduction, while BicMac and Applejack 50%, I would like Pinkie to have a higher jump height instead of knockback reduction 'cause she's bouncy, but what ever :p, I think that should go to the boss suggestion thread?

Edited by Guy Incognito
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Well, here's my geeky two cents on the issue.

 

While I disagree with Arok re: Surprise's knockback, I have played on a UK hale server (HH) before so I know exactly what Arok is talking about. I tried playing doomguy on a tight map and I just ended up corner wrecked and otherwise unable to keep track of where I was -- high ping demands open maps. Unfortunately, any player not in north or central america is going to get rubber banding issues from the knockback due to their high ping. It does make it more challenging to deal with.

 

It's in my experience that if you can strafe a level 3 sentry on solid even ground, you can easily overtake it as Surprise. With two sentries, you need to use a nearby wall to reduce the knockback but it can be fought as well. For an example of the TF2 physics of this, just play on oilrig. Even as RD (takes highest knockback along with R-Dash 5000) if you go through the corridors nothing can knock you back very far usually, because the side railings will dampen the knockback. You have to first be knocked up (i.e. by a soldier) to really get knocked around on oilrig.

 

Sentries are much harder to fight on hills. People not understanding this may be a result of many of the complaints. For whatever reason, tf2 physics cause increased knockback from all sources on hills.

 

I pretty much just think all rages should disable all sentries globally v-o_o-v

I have mixed feelings about this. I feel this would remove the final weaknesses of Fluttershy and Pon-3. If this is done, the hales will need to be rebalanced first.

 

This leads into my next topic: no-raging. People are doing it...hell, I'm doing it. Granted, I don't want to state publicly how many hours of my life I've spent on VSH variants, but it's enough that even I can pull it off. ;P This includes taking down full blown sentry nests without rage. Even took down a double L3 sentry nest in Badlands on top of those middle crates. Last time I failed with a nest was on arenagate where I got stuck. I intentionally avoid playing earth ponies because it becomes too easy. Other NR players (not using Crystalis' disguise) include Kralthe, Revan, one of the Bigglesworths (the pinkamena challenge one), PB (usually) and several others I forgot the names of. In any case, there are ways around the sentries without rage. It doesn't need to become even easier.

 

So that's all my info/opinion re changing knockback. To make it clear, I don't think knockback should be changed at all. Other changes like Jug's suggestion would be more preferable, if done right.

(incidentally, I've got an idea for a replacement rage for Pon-3, which exists and is actually coded already, if you'll hear me out :) )

 

I thought I'd be more productive with my strong opinions and share...

sarysa's NR Sentry Take-Down Tips

  • Very first and most important tip: Don't jump if you try to fight a sentry's knockback on land! Knockback is increased by multiples if you're not on solid ground.
    • Related to this, don't even bother trying a land takedown if a soldier firing rockets at you.
    • Also, strafe to avoid sentry rockets, which will have the same effect as the soldier.
  • Generally speaking, super jumping straight forward into a sentry will be repelled. There are rare situations where this actually works, and it usually involves the gun not actively firing at you, or firing at you from an extremely low angle.
  • As mentioned early, knockback is increased when you're on a ramp.
  • Master the air strafe. To do an air strafe you must first super jump while moving, then while in midair move both your mouse left and right -and- also press A and D on the keyboard corresponding with your movement. If you don't do these two things in sync, you'll just jump in a straight line. Good practice for this would be a surf server, since the controls are exactly the same when jumping between ramps.
    • Keep in mind if you attempt to turn too quickly, you'll stop dead in the air.
  • With that mastered, the most basic sentry takedown is going around the gun in simple circles to confuse it -- much like spies and scouts do in vanilla TF2, only you're doing it in midair.
  • While super jump is on cooldown, you can't weigh down. Making foolish attempts at sentries can trap you in a corner for several seconds. Super jump isn't always the solution.
  • You can make reduced super jumps at 0, 20, 40, 60, and 80 percent charge. Sometimes you NEED to to take down a certain spot. For example, 20-40 is the way to go in warebloom, 0-20 is best for that spot I mentioned on Badlands, and a 0% jump from the spot to the right of the tiny roof sentry spot on Castle Siege combined with an air strafe will get you a goomba before the sentry can track you.
  • Some takedowns are two-step, like on watchtower...to take down a sentry on those high beams, you must first jump onto the little grassy patch below them, then make a second jump and air strafe the sentry.
  • A more complicated move which can only be done effectively on open maps like Crevice is to take a lot of knockback, and then super jump in midair to get an absurd amount of momentum. Combined with air strafing you could end up going so fast that even a sentry out in the open can't target you.
  • Pay attention to if the engie's actually in the nest. If not, go-a-huntin'.
  • As tempting as going after the engie is, only do so if you have a clear shot at them. They can't do much without their sentry but that thing can knock you to the moon -- so get rid of it when you get into the nest.
  • To avoid having to do any of this, cull low level sentries regularly. See a level 1? Tunnel it (while being mindful of spies) so the engie loses time trying to regain metal/rebuild it.
Edited by sarysa
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I pretty much just think all rages should disable all sentries globally v-o_o-v

 

yes they should, but the range is limited on some bosses like surprise or celestia for example, you can't just rage from mile away and expect them to be stunned.

But as surprise you can rage quite near it and still get no sentry stun.

 

 

 

Well, here's my geeky two cents on the issue.

 

m8 if had problems taking down sentries from ground and with super jump.

from the ground you can't even move towards a sentry, from the air you don't even have to bother.

Stop implying that i'm some kind of noob that has no clue what he is doing.......

If one level 1 sentry can knock me back to much then 3 will be hell.......

 

And no the rubber band lag isn't lag, its knockback and it has nothing to do with lag......

Thing is few other bosses don't have that much knockback at all even though they have no knockback resistance at all.....

 

 

 

 what bosses need to be be changed

You said  be twice, well, now back to the point, it should be something like what Jug and Aro said, make every single rage disable sentries globally, and all the earth ponies except for Applejack and BicMac, to have 30% knockback reduction, while BicMac and Applejack 50%, I would like Pinkie to have a higher jump height instead of knockback reduction 'cause she's bouncy, but what ever :p, I think that should go to the boss suggestion thread?

 

Their seriously no need for perks like earth ponies getting 30% knockback res, apple jack big mac or other bosses that aren't strong at all may be exception, like discord apple jack big mac.

Rest of bosses just need to be checked if they can even walk towards a sentry, if not give them knockback resistance till they can normally reach sentry just like other bosses that don't need it.

 

As for sentry stun being global thats probably not gonna work, because you would need to increase the rage distance to, their a reason why for example celestia has limited rage distance or everyone would burn to dead upon single rage.

or surprise would give everyone seizure instead of short distance.

Although i may be wrong. Anyway i think a larger or global sentry rage stun per rage would need a custom rage plugin to be written to do that, and then replace the old sentry rage stun line on each boss config.

 

Either Way if you cant walk towards a sentry due to much pushback then their serious balance issue.

Edited by Arokhantos™

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Arok, most of us understand that you've been pretty frustrated with the knockback issue for at least a month, but there's no reason to go completely defensive to Sarysa.

 

Anyways, the racial traits do give the boss the 'edge' on taking down a player more effectively. Such as the earth ponies can take out anyone on ground level such as the engineer since he's more of a stationary class, Unicorns to silence spellcasters that tend to vex the boss, pegasi to reach up a bit higher to platforms better than a standard jumping boss (without superjumping) and alicorns that pretty much do both silencing and jump higher but not as high as the pegasi.

 

However there are the non-pony bosses such as Discord, Iron will, and I believe the balloonicorn since these ones only share the ability to silence magic. (Honestly I don't know if the balloonicorn actually does disable magic or not) and both discord and iron do suffer knockback the most and I'm not sure if I can suggest something for both of them..

 

But for my point, let's just say you need to have a good understanding on the environment instead of just 'charging in' into a heavily defended group. It's all about the magical word of Strategy.

 

Mkay, as for the knockback..

 

I do agree to Jug's suggestion on having the rage affect sentries globally, since it does create a direct balance and force the engineer to tend to his sentry.

Edited by PBandJ Commando

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Arok, I apologize for any perceived slight. Like we talked about in PM, I'm only stating my experiences. They are what they are and for whatever reason our experiences seem to conflict.

 

BTW, that list of sentry tips was for everyone honestly, not directed at you at all. I mean I go super-rudimentary in that listing, after all. :D

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Oh knockback, Such a love/hate relationship.

 

To my surprise, no one has pointed out the fact that mini-critted or critted sentries do more knockback due to more damage. Not to menion, that stupid faster firing speed on the Jag (Which could use a nice re balance and I've got some ideas for). Those are your 2 main concerns. But Mini sentries though are hell; small, fast firing and 20 damage a shot? Not to mention the Frontier Justice adds to that. Once you jump near that, you are really thrown of course. So to fix the knockback issue, you have to work on both the bosses and the Engineers.

 

So, let's start with the bosses.

 

Earth ponies are known to stick to the ground, where they are most powerful. But I feel that certain characters are not getting their well deserved buffs/nerfs. As previously mentioned, I agree that Big Macintosh and Applejack should be the only 50% resistance hales. (Big Mac goes well with a super jumping cheerilee) due to they are the most "earth" of the ponies. Every other Earth Pony should get a 30% (Solo boss) or 20% (Duo) so they can get lifted slightly but not thrown around. This includes Eppaljack, Judge Stallone, Pinkie Pie and Pinkamena (30%) plus Applebloom, Cheerliee, Kinky Pie and Octavia (20%).

 

As for Sentry stun rage, I feel that needs to go in tangent with the certain races. Since Unicorns have Magic they would get the highest range. Pegasi would be next but to only the same range as a level 3 sentry +20% (In case there's another one nearby) Due to tight maps where the hale get's stuck. Earth ponies will get the least due to their knockback resistance. Duo bosses should also have a slightly less range as there are multiple bosses running around.

"But Down Under, what about Alicorns or non pony bosses?" - Predictable Commenter

Alicorns should be very feared hales. But not to the point of Overpowered. The stun for them could be universal but I say then have a larger cooldown on the superjump for Celestia, Luna, L. Faust, Nightmare Moon and Woona. However for Cadence and Molestia Duo's; Simply the same range as a solo Unicorn.

 

As for non pony based bosses such as Balloonicorn, Queen Chrysalis, Discord, Iron Will and R-Dash 5000. Well why not make them unique-ish?

 

Balloonicorn:

Current problems - Rage is slightly broken, jumps too high.

Superjump or Teleport?: Teleport

Knockback resistance: 10% (To avoid juggling; this should apply to ALL hales)

Sentry Stun range: Same as a Unicorn (Cause...well...he technically is one)

Any fixes to said problems - Make the rage similar to Mare-Do-Well but with a quick fix uber instead (No knockback but takes damage) and no teleport on rage. (So it can be used alongside built in teleport)

 

Queen Chrysalis:

Current problems - Changelings should not be able to attack during invuln

Superjump or Teleport?: Superjump

Knockback resistance: 10% 

Sentry Stun range: Same as a unicorn due to having magic and being able to disguise

Any fixes to said problems - Said above

 

Discord:

Current problems - http://forum.ponyville.net/topic/6440-discords-rage/

Superjump or Teleport?: Teleport

Knockback resistance: 10% 

Sentry Stun range: Universal, to cause chaos of course.

Any fixes to said problems - For a quick buff, he could use a speed boost during his rage (Similar to MDW)

 

Iron Will: (A.K.A PB's Favorite boss)

Current problems - Weapon is silly, rage is imbalanced

Superjump or Teleport?: Superjump

Knockback resistance: 35% (I'm pretty sure Minotaur's are as tough as Earth ponies)

Sentry Stun range: As short as an earth pony.

Any fixes to said problems - Increase the range on the rage but decrease the length (This rage encourages one rages) Weapon needs to be 210% with crits (Not 400% with no crits [this is the "Stock" boss stats])

 

R-Dash 5000:

Current problems - Rage spams >.<

Superjump or Teleport?: Superjump

Knockback resistance: 20% (She IS a robot, I'm pretty sure that Metal is heavier then flesh and bone)

Sentry Stun range: Same as a Pegasus, since she's based off one.

Any fixes to said problems - Rage cooldowns, For the love of celestia.

 

Now that all that is out of the way, let's move on to Engineers

 

As PB mentioned, it's all about Strategy. And rule 1 of the "How to Hale" Handbook says to go for any known Engineers before they set up. But due to Fast moving Gunslinger Engi's and Camping Jag engi's; It's easier said then done. So a total Wrench re-balance may be in order. In my mind, the idea's portrayed for each wrench should be that:

Gunslinger is the most mobile, but with very little firepower or health

Jag Engineers are fast building with great dispensers but are weak themselves.

Stock Engi's are long lasting as they have Metal Regen, stock health and all rounder buildings

Southern Hospitality is where the real firepower lies; although you move slow, build slower, have less metal (But with regen) you get the strongest Sentries and great dispensers. Better pray the hale doesn't find you.

 

This way you have four total ways to play engineer. And your shotgun can throw in a bit of variety into the mix. Granted I got lazy by the end of this post but gosh darn, this is a lot of words. Simple, if you really wish to know exact-ish details on something, PM me and I'll explain it there.

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*cough* make Eureka Effect viable *cough* I'm surprised they didn't change this weapon. They 'balanced' baby face's blaster to make it able to use as a Scout, why not do the same to the Eureka Effect, ofc, remove the teleport taunt.

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Because unfortunately its tied to that weapon like white on rice, even removing the attribute still makes it work like what it is. Only way to make it function like a normal wrench would be to actively disable both its taunt and +attack2.

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If you have no attack2 then you wouldn't be able to pickup a sentry, interesting. So, you could actually make it "you can't pickup buildings" but still, give it some 'cool' stats to make it viable. But yeh, then, disable the taunt and the M2 attack.

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Thing is though you would have to disable both taunting and attack2 in code and lately its been a "we couldn't be asked" situation

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This is invaluable info. Thanks for analyzing it, esp. BDU and sarysa.

Some of these suggestions will make it into the next patch, but we can't say exactly which ones yet... it seems like whenever details about a physics problem like this surface people start making all kinds of assumptions  :spin:

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This is invaluable info. Thanks for analyzing it, esp. BDU and sarysa.

Some of these suggestions will make it into the next patch, but we can't say exactly which ones yet... it seems like whenever details about a physics problem like this surface people start making all kinds of assumptions  :spin:

 

Eh, there's a lot of crazy crap floating around in my head. It's fun trying to sort it out all the stuff that's useful.

 

*Cough* Jug isn't the only one with crazy ideas *Cough*

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Most preferred fix right now is walk on ground 1 sentry gives so much knockback you move more backward then forward then obviously need more resistance.

When you can reach sentry no problem and have ton resistance and barely take knockback then needs to be toned down, however keeping it balanced.

 

Hales without super jump especially are more deserving of massive knockback resistance then super jump hales also, like discord due fact he's rather slow.

 

Only reason applejack should have plenty resistance is to stop her from hitting skybox from just one hit, for those that do not remember 1 shot and she flew all over the map, think primarily because of using wrong attribute that doubled her knockback rather then decrease it i'm not sure.

 

As long you can walk towards a sentry properly or rage disables sentry from a reasonable range guess nothing is needed, but taking for example surprise you have to be right next to sentry to stun it with a rage, which is waaaaaaaay to low considering you cannot even walk towards a sentry you are pushed back more then you can move forward.

 

Their hales that do not have this problem at all do not have knockback resistance either, those i consider balanced, anything else that cannot counter sentry or walk towards one properly need to be balanced so their rage either counters sentries properly or knockback resistance.

 

Also when you are cadence and shining armor shining armor rage gives dmg immunity but does't give knockback immunity as you would expect, i suggest changing it so are immune during shining armor rage, or least make shining armor more like a tank.

Rages like shining armor that gives shield should actually be very useful against sentries, its not very useful at all, and you being knocked back like a ping pong ball still during the rage.

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The only solution I can see for the knockback to be reduced is to give Vaccinator to Quick-Fix level of knockback for all the Hales.  In any regular TF2 server, just simply walk up to a sentry (even if you are ubercharged), and you'll experience that same level of knockback as experienced in the gamemode.  If the knockback solution results to it being ignored, then there must be another passive ability that can be given to the Hales.

 

And don't get me started on Hales that get skybox-cornered by a single sentry (especially on arena_granary).

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I am getting really really really pissed off because of sentry knockback.

 

Being forced discord, then facing 3 sentries no chance to teleport to a sentry super jump or whatgever i'm forced to take dmg or suicide.

 

I take to much knockback, i don't have super jump.

 

Teleport cooldown is way to long.

 

This is becoming a joke, can we take balance more serious already or i am done with complaining, that means bye bye arokhantos the servers will end up on my blacklist then instead of my favorites.

 

If been complaining far to long about sentry knockback.

 

I'm not gonna keep feeding my tmj dysorder, i thought donating 200 dollars would bring some chances, instead i'm being mostly ignored still.....

 

I come to play on the server for fun, not to be a try hard that does't care about that hales are balanced way to weak.......

 

 

PLZ JUST NERF SENTRY KNOCKBACK ALREADY, AND FIX KNOCKBACK ISSUES!

Edited by Arokhantos™

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Discord has the same Charge Teleport cooldown as Twilight Sparkle.

 

I actually updated Discord earlier today, but I didn't add the change to all servers. I've done that now.

 

Discord changes:

 

Knockback from damage reduced 50% during Rage.

Instant Teleport on Rage removed.

Grows 2x his normal size during Rage.

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Need knockback changes for each boss that has issues, from what if noticed mostly alicorns and pegasus bosses models are build so light weight they knock around easy by sentry's, rockets you can avoid easy but sentries they auto track and hit you constantly for as long you near one, and if you cannot move close and rage does't disable sentry due limited range you can't do anything at all.........

 

This really need to be fixed, it ruins vsp completely.........

 

yGsft3k.png

 

Here example of surprise rage, at this distance the rage does't disable sentry.

My way of dealing with sentry is stunning it then super jumping towards sentry cos otherwise i take even more knockback.

 

On the ground you take less knockback then in the air, while normaly on the ground can normaly reach sentry surprise somehow can't cos she takes way to much knockback.

In the air however she takes even more knockback a simple level 1 sentry she can't deal with if its on a platform and rage can't reach it.

 

This been bugging me for a long time.

 

Mostly alicorn and pegasus hales have this problem with sentries because they are build to be lightweight, which is't even funny anymore.

 

Already sentries are giving to much knockback with default attributes, now jag gives like 20% sentry firing speed from last if seen ?

You don't even stand a chance...... its not even funny.

 

Most maps btw have platform like this, so its a common situation.

 

edit:

 

Since the 30% knockback resistance changes knockback has been more balanced, however surprise still taking a lot of knockback my round ended up a stalemate, this boss really need to be balanced better.

 

The tiny rage is't effective at all its huge dis advantage giving others a buff you harm you even more, this needs to be changed still, and the taunt is avoidable.

 

Anyway the tiny rage is complete downgrade rage.

Edited by Arokhantos™

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