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sarysa

High perches and teleport bosses

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So lately there's been disagreement regarding teleport bosses and high perches. As far as I know it started on the Funbox where people would say in chat/voice chat telling someone to get down from some perch because the teleport boss "couldn't get up there". (which they can, but anyway) So for awhile I'd been contradicting this on funbox, thinking someone pulled it out of thin air/shoehorned a new rule in. Eventually I brought it up with Videogames while we were both on Funbox and at the time, he said I believe that it was (not 100% sure) Chuckle who initiated the rule and ultimately we agreed that it's fine as just a Funbox rule, but not for the other Texas server.

 

About a month later people started citing that rule on the regular Texas server and once again I told them otherwise as well. Then Kumar started citing it so now it's officially something that needs to be discussed.

 

I'll just bullet point my concerns with a high perch rule...there are many:

  • The biggest problem is it's vague. The buildings and trees on mc_village may as well be considered high perches as they're very difficult for a boss to get to, but they're only 200HU high. OTOH they're a fundamental part of that map. Then you have other maps with 500HU high perches which are just as bad. Where to draw the line is pretty blurred.
  • The second biggest problem is VSH maps have tons of perches by design -- they're not like valve maps. It's intentionally one way the players have to stay alive. You can't just go "Ok, Discord's hale. Everyone off the buildings and trees."
  • The majority of hales have a secondary means of dealing with perched players and it's not just Discord, yet teleport boss players are trying to cite this rule anyway to force players down from a situation that is not impossible. Not even close.

I've always felt that VSP has a superior teleport mechanic -- it prevents uber traps and (most) cheap telefrags. But it has made it harder to deal with perched players...harder, but not impossible.

 

On the other hand, someone using perches to stall Discord and even Twilight is a problem...but it's a different problem. It's the same as a 0 damage scout who constantly tunnel snakes the boss or a gunboats trolldier who just jumps from healthpack to healthpack. These are incidents of stalling and perch stalling should be treated as stalling in my opinion, and not some vague that perch is fine but the other one just like it isn't rule.

 

Most teleport bosses have a 15 second teleport to get around this. Twilight doesn't but she does have a stun but more important, an uber...and chain lightning. Stalling is virtually never a problem with her. The problem here is with Discord. He's still the only boss with no anti-stalling mechanic and an ungodly long 40 second teleport timer. So many problems could be solved by him getting a 15 second teleport like almost everyone else.

 

In the end I think these things could improve the situation:

  • Give Discord 15 second teleport
  • Maybe give Discord 4 seconds of uber during the rage (thankfully a stun rage would make no sense anyway)
  • Classify the rule as an anti-stalling thing. If someone's perched and just knocking the hale down when they teleport in and then ignoring them, that's stalling.

That's my peace, I'm sure Kumar will have his own opinions to bring up.

Edited by sarysa
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With high perches, sure it can be countered, but honestly, how would else would they be able to reach up there by using means outside of the boss's own ability?  Let alone, staying up there practically waiting and doing nothing while they let their teammates do their work for them?  Me, I also see that in a way of "waiting for last-man-crits."  With my experience of people perching up in a high spot during a teleport-based Hale, the common trait I see in them is that they're just as bad as a trolldier or any class that's just being useless and just dancing around the Hale for no other purpose other than.  I've seen plenty of that crap happen during the Dinky Administration, and I find it a very ugly and unwelcoming sight to see it happen again.  And overall, it just ruins the experience for the Hale player.  And I'm just not going to have that, and neither does anyone else.  As for the "no-perching up at high spots" during a teleport-based Hale round, it was a rule that Videogames380 put in place in addition to certain maps like vsh_kakariko, where there are spots of which that I can agree that NOBODY should be on.  My guess that this type of stalling has spilled over into the rotation maps on Funbox that somehow made its way to the 24/7 VSP server.  I'm not sure about if it spread to the EU or the Japanese servers.  And since this perching has become a bit more frequent, it's best to deal with it now before it blooms out.  The last thing we want to see are more maps being taken out because of the high-spot/stalling/avoiding the Hale (just look at Skyhigh, came in and gone out), since maps like kakariko were taken out because it's more of a troll-friendly map.  And if its a spot that's as clear as day in terms of not being on and with whatever particular loadout one might have, then it should be clear to everyone else that "maybe I shouldn't even be on this spot."  Hence why is that I'm enforcing this type of stalling tactic.

 

As for the solutions that can be able to solve this, I do believe that the ones sarysa proposed can work.  What I also propose as well: remove the Jump spell from all items that allow player to conjure up spells.  This way it will not allow the players to reach up into difficult to reach spots for teleport-based Hales.  As for the last proposal that sarysa mentioned, I do agree that it should be a part of the No Stalling rule.  While you may or may not be doing damage, if you're doing it against the teleport-based Hales and not doing anything when you knock them down, you are indeed stalling and not combating the Hale.  There's melee-fighting up close with the Hale, dancing back and forth while the two of you whack the air or hitting the other one's body; and then there's just dancing around the Hale whether it be by just being a trolldier, using Jump spells or just flat out running in circles around the Hale while contributing NOTHING to the round.

 

In short, if there's an objective to be completed on a map, go help out your team to get that objective done.  No matter what gamemode or what map it is, just get the job done.

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I'll make fuller replies after more people chime in, but...

 

re: Kakariko: Isn't it just that one end building that the hale can get hopelessly pinned on? Hopefully Videogames can clarify. Either way that map starts people on perches, and Discord is just screwed over by default. With the time limit a bunch of AFK's could win. (he needs fix :P )

re: Skyhigh: I thought the major issue here was the lack of nobuild at boss spawn which allowed cheap telefrags. While the radio tower is a two step super jump to reach and overall annoying spot, it's no worse than, say, the side engie spots on Watchtower which is also a two step super jump to take down without rage. (and the radio tower's only useful for snipers)

Edited by sarysa

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It's the same as a 0 damage scout who constantly tunnel snakes the boss or a gunboats trolldier who just jumps from healthpack to healthpack. 

Sorry...anyways

 

Back in older versions of Ponyville, we had it so those with higher jump capacity (scouts, soldiers, flare pyros, demos, etc) have increased gravity if they were the remaining class(es) AND we intentionally gave teleport bosses a higher default jump so it'd be easier to chase jumpers (Twilight had it until it was removed). I'd say bring those back.

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It's the same as a 0 damage scout who constantly tunnel snakes the boss or a gunboats trolldier who just jumps from healthpack to healthpack. 

Sorry...anyways

 

Back in older versions of Ponyville, we had it so those with higher jump capacity (scouts, soldiers, flare pyros, demos, etc) have increased gravity if they were the remaining class(es) AND we intentionally gave teleport bosses a higher default jump so it'd be easier to chase jumpers (Twilight had it until it was removed). I'd say bring those back.

 

Im with Jug on this one..Bring back the higher jumps..Yes i was here when those bosses had them.probably not all the Tele hales but when Twilight had it.@Sarysa-BTW Twilight also has a 40 second cool down time Sarysa..I really think that should be brought down to 20 or 15 secs seeing as Tele hales no longer can Tele Goomba as they could before.

Edited by Steel Crescent

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Twilight never loses unless the player doesn't know how to use chain lightning. I'm not really in favor of her getting any sort of unnecessary boost, heh.

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As Discord I have had issues with the jump height near the end of the red player count on Watchtower. Even though the (wall barricades?) on both sides weren't that tall, It took about 2 minutes to get a scoot that camped on it. It's a perfectly normal and accessible location for any class that can jump a bit higher than normal (Rocket jump, Detonator, Sticky Jump, Scout jump, etc).

 

Less gravity for the hale may solve this, or decreased teleport timer with complete knockback resistance.

Or a giant laser cannon.

 

If anybody wants players to test, I'd be up for it.

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