Rainy

[Versus Ponyville] Boss Suggestions (Mechanics, Music, Etc.)

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Just as a notice to everyone, Tomrrow I will be closing and formatting the Google Doc to send out finalized. If you wanna make any inputs, it's a good idea to do them now. Share the link to others who you feel would put input please. Also I will correct everything, including grammar, so don't worry on spelling. 

 

DOC CLOSED: Thank you for everyone who helped in it! :)

Edited by Holy Bird Pope

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SPOILER

What about adding the CMC's cutie marks to the CMC. I cried ;~;

 

EDIT: Also for the love of God and all that is holy, please remove the ridiculous random crits from Hales!!!

Edited by Juan Tienda

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It will once I update their models. It's not worth to just grab their current models and put a cutie mark in it when I can update them, giving them a new look and better base model :p

 

About crits, It's been asked before, back when I used to be really active on the servers I wanted them removed too. The only excuse to have them is kgb heavies.

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About crits, It's been asked before, back when I used to be really active on the servers I wanted them removed too. The only excuse to have them is kgb heavies.

Crits must be removed, it basically removes the ability to survive one hit from mercs that can survive one such as a minigun heavy and a 4 head demoknight. Also think Sea Pony needs a speed boost. Really hard to catch up to people with 5 sentries in the map and trying to chase down a scout or spy. admins pls

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About crits, It's been asked before, back when I used to be really active on the servers I wanted them removed too. The only excuse to have them is kgb heavies.

 

When you realize it only takes 2-3 non-crit hits and or a rage to kill a KGB Heavy with barely any effort, this makes every other class suffer because of one class, Plus the heal you get with melee hitting the Hale as KGB Heavy is not even enough to sustain another hit from the Hale.(Plus the fact that not many People even play KGB Heavy unless it's a Hale that has "No Random Crits")

 

Why make every other Class suffer cause high random crit chance, i just see this as a cruel joke tbh. :/

 

Amazing job on the Models No Name, and also i would love to see the CMC Models completely updated, that would be fantastic.  :smugtrixie:

 

Also think Sea Pony needs a speed boost. Really hard to catch up to people with 5 sentries in the map and trying to chase down a scout or spy. admins pls

 

 

5 sentries...? You do realize the Engie limit is 3 right....

Edited by Zeke Aileron™
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5 sentries...? You do realize the Engie limit is 3 right....

 

It was a bit of an exaggeration but yeah, even a single sentry stops you from catching up to the scout, not to mention the soldier's easy "airshots". But nah, I didn't ;~;

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The admins are saying they keep them enabled for random crits because it's a part of the game. My question to this is, does this mean it has to be enabled here? It don't mean it's a part of the gamemode itself and I don't know anyone who has mentioned that. Normally people say "random crits are bullsh't and not fair" and keeps them off servers like Competetive.

 

What I would suggest is to remove them.

 

But if they are getting removed, I would also suggest nerfing KGB's a bit more. The crits are usually what helps against them not being too strong sometimes.

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The admins are saying they keep them enabled for random crits because it's a part of the game. My question to this is, does this mean it has to be enabled here? It don't mean it's a part of the gamemode itself and I don't know anyone who has mentioned that. Normally people say "random crits are bullsh't and not fair" and keeps them off servers like Competetive.

 

What I would suggest is to remove them.

 

But if they are getting removed, I would also suggest nerfing KGB's a bit more. The crits are usually what helps against them not being too strong sometimes.

How about having the KGB take normal damage? They already do plenty of damage so why not just increase the speed and make them take normal damage? 2 hits from the hale (3 with the likes of Rainbow Dash, as 2 hits do 294 damage) and they're down. Its rather obnoxious fighting 3 KGB heavies as the CMC so this nerf would even things out a bit. Also, random crits from hales have and always been "bullsh*t and not fair." "Melee weapons are designed to crit far more often than ranged ones in order to encourage their usage at close range. Their base crit chance starts at 15% - higher than attainable for ranged weapons with the recent damage bonus maxed out - and their recent damage bonus scales from 0% to 45%, meaning a player that has done 800 damage or more in the last 20 seconds has a melee crit rate of 60%." This is what causes Hales to get 5 crit kills in a row and 6 critical swings in a row (from my observations.)Some next level ridiculousness if you ask me, as 1 random crit will make the crit chance of Luna rise to 60%. To summarize this: Nerf the KGB and remove those dastardly, stupid random crits.

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Doctor Whooves takes a RIDICULOUS amount of knockback, I find myself getting blasted ACROSS half the map with a measly Force a' Nature and airblasts. Could the knockback resistance be buffed on this hale? I couldn't even catch up to an engie due to a horde of scout and pyros pushing me back to the end of the world. And don't say that neighdown helps cause it doesn't last nearly enough and the effects are still too strong for the neighdown to be efficient. Admins pls

Edited by Juan Tienda

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Whooves should have the same level of knockback as Applejack, since they're both Engineer hales. (in fact, with some of the early hales getting knockback resist scaled back to 28%, he might have 2% more than AJ) I double checked his config file and code, and he should always have 30%.

 

I'm also going to defend random crits, oddly enough. To change it would have a considerable effect on game balance. Yeah, it's RNG...RNG is icky and RNG isn't competitive, but VSP isn't competitive. (this is coming from me, a card-carrying tryhard -- it's not competitive in the modern sense)

 

It all really stems from the fact that the modding community arbitrarily decided that 195 damage per hit is the ideal. (it's ~204 on VSP, though) A lot of the initial balance relied heavily on this...HP equations and the like. I'll admit myself that with most hales I've balanced, I've stuck with the VSP standard of 204. When I go even a little below (Spike), or way below (Thi, Fluttershy), the community tends to have a tougher time accepting it. Random crits was actually a part of that package...it was a bit later into VSH/FF2's life before a catch-all option for disabling random crits was added. (which, BTW, I think is a horrible idea...but I digress)

 

So the VSP bosses were actually balanced around said crits, and it's pretty difficult to replace. Without the crits, medics can become almost overpowered in a non-Donut Steel round, making a good number of loadouts difficult to put down. With the crits, bosses have at least a chance of getting through that overheal barrier. The alternative to random crits would be perhaps no crits but a 33% damage boost, but that wouldn't really be the same. It'd make overheal only useful to some Soldier/Demo loadouts and Heavies.

 

I've been trying to keep this in mind with my weird balances. Fluttershy and Thi's lack of random crits are due to how powerful their rages can be if used properly, while Spike and Sea Pony still get random crits, but I felt that players needed more survivability due to their other abilities. (or in Sea Pony's case, as a response to the game changing effects of her round)

 

In any case, like them or hate them, to properly remove random crits from all hales that have them, you'd have to do a monumental amount of changes to overall balance. Despite how often I feel forsaken by RNGesus (as both a hale and a merc), I think it'd be better to just pick and choose a few bosses and consider removal of random crits in lieu of nerfing their powerful rages.

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~snip~

I'd personally have to disagree with crits being on. I'm honestly really sick of people using "it's not a competitive gamemode" as an excuse for trying to ignore or change balancing. RNG is an awful mechanic, and I really hate seeing a random crit ruining a chance for a victory.

 

Another obvious issue would be how OFTEN they happen, which is why they're such a pain for KGBs.

From the TF2 Wiki:

"Melee weapons are designed to crit far more often than ranged ones in order to encourage their usage at close range. Their base crit chance starts at 15% - higher than attainable for ranged weapons with the recent damage bonus maxed out - and their recent damage bonus scales from 0% to 45%, meaning a player that has done 800 damage or more in the last 20 seconds has a melee crit rate of 60%."

 

Considering how much damage bosses can do, they can have a 60% crit rate if they're constantly killing players. Over half of their attacks being crits? You're luckier to NOT get a crit because of how it works.

 

To be honest, I personally still think that Medics are a bit underpowered. Overheal actually saving your targets would be something to make them a bit more useful, and it would make the Quick-Fix somewhat actually viable. (Or the Vaccinator's damage resist if it wasn't half broken)

 

What bosses are actually balanced around random crits? I really don't see any bosses that seem to be balanced around them, it's just an extra damage spike to screw over Heavies that haven't even had a chance to fight yet.

Edited by Col(gate)
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Well the other axis of balance is difficulty level that's specific to the community. Given the competitive nature of, say, OzFur, their balance wouldn't work on VSP. We're already in kind of in a tricky situation where veterans complain that no-raging is too easy, but new players often get crushed...balance around OzFur players and virtually everyone would get crushed. The ideal of course is 50/50 for any hale.

 

Regarding the 800 damage thing, keep in mind that it's 800 base damage. So one crit would still only add ~204 to that "recent damage" tally. That's not to downplay the ease of chaining crits when a crowd gets decimated, but it's worth mentioning...

 

I guess I dug a hole by using the "VSP isn't competitive" argument. Here's the point I was trying to make, courtesy of MS Paint:

balance_scales.png

A visual balance scale with pseudo-values. (don't read into them too much, I need it to be readable and not shrunk by the forum)

You have no random crits, standard (valve) random crits, and then some hypothetical code-manipulated flat random crit values. The point I was trying to make is that suddenly turning off random crits for all hales would have a huge balance impact, and a it's pretty difficult to have a compromise that doesn't rely on the RNG because of wildly varying class HP values.

 

Even if Raini and Simple suddenly decided that RNG is bad, they'd need to tweak/add abilities to characters (repeatedly) to compensate for the huge power drop by losing random crits. Going RNG-free isn't something I'm against by any means, but it's something that would have to be rolled out carefully over months, with a lot of time and effort behind the scenes.

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I've already seen some FF2/VSH servers without random crits and it doesn't turn out to make lots of rounds lost. 

 

Right now, I can't agree there's 50/50 chance of winning as we in the meantime have some op bosses (AJ, Chrysalis etc). It would be between 70/30 to 45/55.

 

In otherwise: Balancing should not aim for noobs cause things get boring otherwise after a while. Noobs won't stay noobs forever.

 

So still, I wouldn't say removing random crits would make a full requirement of balancing and can make a huge amount of boss rounds losing.

Edited by ThunderRunner

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I've already seen some FF2/VSH servers without random crits and it doesn't turn out to make lots of rounds lost.

Other servers have different "sweeteners" than ours, though, which can make it difficult to weigh their servers against ours. Most servers use taunt crits and/or amplifier as their sweetener, while we have an elaborate spell system, shield regen, various weapon boosts by Simple as ours.

 

Nothing else to say...I just wanted to point out that complication.

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Personally, I don't see how the removal of random crits would call for monumental re-balancing. As it stands, nearly every hale can kill most classes in a single melee hit.

 

The few exceptions would be Fluttershy, Spike, Thi, and occasionally Rainbow Dash, but they all have ways to overcome their weak melees: Spike has guaranteed crits on flaming targets to go along with his flamethrower, Thi has ranged weapons, and Fluttershy has bears and a reload rage to make everyone near her almost unable to move. Aaannd Rainbow Dash instakills everyone in her path with her rage and is too fast to escape from.

 

...But every other hale has a strong melee. Around 200 damage(Even more for spy bosses) is enough to kill most classes with a single, regular hit- it's rare to survive a hit if you're not a KGB heavy or demoman with heads. Critical hits are not necessary to kill anyone.

 

I often see KGB heavies used as an excuse for the necessity of random critical hits, but that's silly. If you hit a KGB heavy 3 or 4 times(2 for spy bosses), he is dead. The healing provided by the KGB's hits are not sufficient to survive another hit unless the hale has horrible aim.

 

And what if he had a medic? Now he's scary- but medics can be killed. They die in one hit just like anyone else, unless they have overheal. I think overheal should be a main focus here when thinking about random crits, as overheal is the only way for most classes to have any hope of surviving a hit.

 

As Sarysa mentioned, medics would become far more dangerous if random crits were removed. ...Because then overheal would actually be useful. Dangerous classes like engineers and medics could reliably survive a single hit and only be left wounded, rather than dead, with overheal.

 

As it stands, overheal is almost completely useless due to random crits. I cannot count the times I've healed a fellow medic only to have them critted to death before my eyes. Or anyone else- It's not just medics, and this really does happen a lot.

 

I'm very surprised if I actually allow someone to take a hit by providing overheal, and even so, they'll often just die anyway. Even with overheal, most anyone but a KGB would die in two hits regardless. And hitting someone twice isn't hard unless you have awful aim or you're getting knocked around like a pinball.

 

Seeing random crits as a necessity for balance is something that I just cannot understand. Rage is available to help hales win, they can super jump(or teleport), they are faster than anyone but a scout or demoman with 4 heads, and nearly all of them have a powerful melee readily capable of killing anyone without the help of crits.

 

The removal of random crits would make hale's rounds harder were any medics alive, but not unbearably so. <3

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The discussion of boss balancing generally avoids the point of TF2, which is your team. You can get one-shotted within the first minute of the round and get no damage, but is the boss OP if your team wins? No, the boss is OP if it can one-shot everyone with a good population within the first minute or so without some special circumstances (as an example). There's been quite a push to mislabel 'Over Powered' as 'I don't like that', and it is really hurting good discussion on this topic. It doesn't matter if your class can be one-shotted, what matters is the frequency of wins/losses and making sure that classes have an ability to participate and get at least 1200 damage with proper skill level and environment circumstances.

 

I do think that we should try to remove random crits from some bosses. As hale, it doesn't seem right to have rages and special abilities, but also have a random chance to one-shot classes that should take more damage. It takes away from the planning dynamic, making the strategy of what class and loadout to use come down to a generated random chance. I think there's plenty of chance already in the game with where the hale will be and the risks taken by players to get more damage.

 

In Sourcemod I tried out manipulating Action:TF2_CalcIsAttackCritical to turn off crits, but could only get crits to increase, not remove them. If it did work, I don't think it'd be a permanent solution anyways, but would be nice for a day or so to test.

Edited by Disowned the Title Guy

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My review of Five of nights hale

First you can tell this was rushed models are fine but serious the player changes from jumps to tele every life did you think about that before making it so random? First it gives little new abilities but majorly a bad hale in my statement. Twlight or whatever her name is rage is the new fluffle puff that just kills anything instantly close and can take shields away few meters away thru walls hmm that seems fair? Alight lets get some positives in not ranged weapons and adding somewhat of a new rage ability on some of them. As we all know everyone hats engineers and frankly people are told to rage or tunnel them but seriously 800+ building damage the new nightmare moon? Abilities not enough explanation on them and you wont get to use them all since 5 lives (Donut how original) ... but I mean there's 5 animatronics so I cant fight there. 1 od the rages is it will make all ammo/ health packs hurt players and they will turn black how can u tell that when most of the packs are usually in the dark? This is just my saying cause honestly it looks nice but it's gameplay mechanic is bad

 

I for one don't want this hale

Since we had the say if we wanted it or not!

Option #1 Either make it 5 player hale but give it the ability of medics reving and all long teles

Option #2 Scrap it and work on the hales that actually need fixing instead of adding new ones they give this boss a 5 sec tele still poor discord has a 45 sec tele for who knows how long

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Eh, fnap isn't that bad, to be honest. The lives constantly change up tactics, wich is a nice change of pace.

In case you don't know what each live does, here is a short recap (if none got changed, that is):

 

General Scootz, on 13 Jul 2015 - 01:20 AM, said:snapback.png

So, pretty much the hale is 1 person versus the rest with 6 lives.

 

You start off as Chicashy,

  • rage_prop_buff: This is Fluttershy's or what we like to call her ChicaShy's rage ability. She drops multiple cupcakes close by and she eats it to gain some of a long list of attribute bonuses. 

Then Rarity

  • rage_pickup_trap: This rage is for the Rarionette. What it does is that it makes some (not all) health kits and ammo kits turn "evil" and damage or remove ammo from players instead of healing and give them ammo. This change is permanent, and affected packs do not respawn. Another, temporary effect is that dispensers harm players.

Then RD

  • ff2_speed_by_views: FoxyDash's ability. The more players view her, the slower she moves. The fewer players view her, the faster she moves. When she rages, she gets N seconds where players have their view somewhat obscured (just TV static) and she can move at maximum speed.

Twilight.

  • rage_twisted_attraction: BonTwi gets a twisted version of Twilight's attraction rage. It violently pushes players into BonTwi and if close enough, they get caught in her grasp. After a delay, it does damage to everyone in a radius.

Pinkie Fazpony.

  • rage_instant_teleports: Pinkie Fazpony doesn't naturally have a rage. When her rage meter hits full she gains two free teleports that don't fear her after she uses them. The user may switch from super jump to teleport by pressing the R key. She also one shots players, just like in the game, the most fearsome.

And Bananajack.

  • rage_cripple_stacks: Golden Applejack (or what me and No Name like to call her Bananajack) is like a last hope kind of hale. Her rage is gained frequently, and adds a crippling stack to all non-ubered players. Each stack slows, does damage over time, and makes players more vulnerable to damage. (to compensate, she starts with a weak melee but the ability to crit) 

This is pretty much every rage, without damage numbers.

 

We planned on players to wait for the hale to come out and figure everything out. But it doesn't matter anymore :|

 

Heck, even I didn't remember Shy's/Rd's/Pinkie's lives until I looked this up, so this should clear up some things.

Another few things to note:
-I've never seen Shy rage before, to be honest. I guess since she's the first, she the least likely to rage, but still.

-Rarity is pretty annoying. Being used to a certain pick-up wich suddenly isn't there anymore... it's weird. Just stay away from the black packs, they turn back... right?

-Twilight can attack during her rage. If you're pulled, pray to Raini god she doesn't decide to kill you then and there. Also, her pull can fly you around the map if you don't see her.
Uber-medics can shine here, flashing everyone in the pull.

-I'm not sure I like how Rd works, since her ability is directly related to the actual number of players. If you're playing with only 10 people, she will be so much stronger than if you were to play with 30 people.
Hmm... wonder if natasha works against her. Anyway, sentries and minigun-heavies have a decent knockback on her.

-Pinkie can literally oneshot everything, due to that 4901% damage boost. Just stay away, I suppose.

-Aj is actually pretty weak. Just having a dispenser of medic denies her drain, while melee classes shine against her slow speed... coming from me hamming Aj to death 4 times now.

Edited by Koekelbag

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[...] rushed models [...]

 

Don't worry, I'm not offended by this, in fact those models do suck :p

Those models are from january, before I barely knew what I was doing. Since their name wasn't even mentioned  for about 6 months after being made I just considered the idea was scrapped (there was a few members against this boss), so I never got around updating them. When I heard that they were going to be added on halloween I made a new version of fluttershy, and in the end I got negative feedback on them because they would be too scary, so I decided to let the "old" models be used.

Edited by No Name

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[...] rushed models [...]

 

Don't worry, I'm not offended by this, in fact those models do suck :p

Those models are from january, before I barely knew what I was doing. Since their name wasn't even mentioned  for about 6 months after being made I just considered the idea was scrapped (there was a few members against this boss), so I never got around updating them. When I heard that they were going to be added on halloween I made a new version of fluttershy, and in the end I got negative feedback on them because they would be too scary, so I decided to let the "old" models be used.

 

 

I think the original sentence is supposed to be this: 

'First you can tell this was rushed, models are fine, but seriously the player changes from jumps to tele every life'.

 

The models look fantastic to me.

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School has taught me only that in life nothing more. I personally like your old models better because its a creepy scary game that children play it should be scary to players when fighting than rather looking like a plush doll. I mean I don't play hale here its to unbalanced for me to and the argument with less crits makes you lose more is like your writing your opinion. Hales that don't crit still have the same chance of winning there are few KGB's now hales can easily 1 hit soldiers what more do you ask for? Also was wondering instead of giving pipsqueak and the other hales that use of a grappling hook from the sky use a manpower grappling hook instead for more mobility and its easier to use for players? Give players a grappling hook for 10 sec health losss on op donor bosses? Cough stupid duos

 

Still don't see the point of a hale having 5 changes (Yes I can say that) make them separate or 5 person hale with 3 hit kill swing on at least a solider and giving properties of medics reviving . I already hate cmc with the 1 hit killing and the boring overplayed duo bosses.

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Not the models the rage mechanics making it nearly impossible to pick up ammo since u default map to the smallest ammo pack and twibows rage cant dmg and take away shields thru walls about a few meters away from her. The Game mechanics are rushed it doesn't look well thought through and not tested enough. (Don't say we tested it on the background) No help that's for the devs give players the ability to test stuff for once before getting released?
 

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>I'll be honest, when making the models we thought they looked fantastic at the time. 

 

Now they just look like garbage due to the skill we've acquired over the 2-3 years.

 

Another thing to look back on is the complete design of the bosses. This boss is like snowdrop. A rushed pile of trash. We thought it looked nice, even after 2 months of work. But it seems that the people arguing against it were right in the long run. 

Edited by Scootz

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